Field notes // Data and list building

List building is hard.Cold calling is easy.

Fifteen years, a dozen companies, and one conclusion I did not expect: the phone was never the hard part.

By Dylan Garvock-de Montbrun, Co-Founder KYC Strategies 7 minute read

I have been in sales for almost fifteen years. I have made cold calls at a dozen different companies, into markets that had nothing in common with each other, at a Fortune 500 company and at a startup where I was one of four people. Different products, different buyers, different tools, different decades of software.

After all of that, the thing I keep coming back to is not a script, a dialer or a CRM. It is this: if I had been given a clean list, the calling would have been easy. Every time. Regardless of what was on my desk.

I mean that literally. Give me a genuinely clean list and I will beat a mediocre list with a parallel dialer, an AI assistant and a perfect CRM, while dialing every number by hand from my phone. The list is the campaign. Everything else is execution on top of it.

Everyone wants to talk about the opener. Almost nobody wants to talk about the spreadsheet.

The hard part is structuring the data

Here is the problem. Building a list that is actually good is a data problem, and data is not easy to structure. The tools most teams reach for are not built to solve it for you.

ZoomInfo, Apollo, Cognism, Lusha, Seamless and the rest of the sales intelligence category are enormous, useful businesses. But what you are searching is their index, assembled on their schedule, filtered by the fields they decided to expose. You are not searching the market. You are searching a copy of it, and you are bound by whatever that copy contains.

Clay is the best tool in this space and we use it every day. But it is still a platform with its own search surface and its own filters. When you go to build a contact list at larger organizations, you run into the edges of what the underlying providers hold, and the further your target sits from a common, well-covered job title, the more you feel it.

So the first thing we changed at KYC Strategies was what we use Clay for. We do not use it to build the list. We use it to enrich one. That distinction is the whole article, really.

What a good list actually requires

Before any tool matters, three things have to be decided, and they have to be decided in this order.

  1. 1

    Segment the market as narrowly as you can standNot "healthcare." Not even "healthcare IT." Narrow enough that one message can be true for everyone on the list. If a message has to stretch to cover the list, the list is too wide.

  2. 2

    Pick a persona and a level, togetherA job title on its own is not a target. Director of Operations at a 200-person company and Director of Operations at a 20,000-person company are two different jobs with two different problems. Function and seniority have to be chosen as a pair.

  3. 3

    Test two or three ways of saying itThen run them against each other into that segment, at that level, and let the calls decide. Not a meeting, not a whiteboard. The calls.

The myth that the answer is already online

A lot of people believe the right list and the right go-to-market angle are sitting out there somewhere, waiting to be found and downloaded. Buy the right data, apply the right filters, and the strategy falls out of the tool.

It does not work that way, and it never has. Every company is different. Every market is different. And every product going into every market is led by different people with different philosophies, supported by product and engineering teams with their own view of what should be built first and what should come next. That combination has never existed before in exactly that shape, which means the list that serves it does not exist yet either. It has to be built.

Nobody has your list, because nobody has your company. It is not out there. It gets made.

How we build a list

We build ours from live sources at the moment the list is created, rather than pulling from a static index that was assembled weeks or months ago. That single choice removes the largest source of waste in cold calling: dialing people who moved, changed roles or left the company since the data was last refreshed.

Once the contacts exist, they run through enrichment for mobile numbers across roughly fourteen providers. That is where Clay earns its place in our stack, and it is very good at it.

The part that took us the longest is the least visible. Everything is structured against a data schema we defined ourselves, with specific seniority codes and specific job title codes applied consistently across every campaign we run. It is not glamorous work. It took years of iteration to get right, and it runs on our own software and our own workflows rather than on someone else's search box.

That schema is why a list we build in June and a list we build in December are comparable to each other. Which brings me to the part most people miss.

Why the schema matters

The list is the input to the reporting.

Every campaign we run ends in a report that says which industry responded, which title family converted, which angle landed and whether the market is worth calling again. None of that is possible unless the list was structured the same way every time. Consistent codes going in are what make the comparison coming out mean anything.

How the reporting works

Get this backwards and everything downstream is decoration. A bad list produces bad data, bad data produces a report full of numbers that cannot be acted on, and you end up dialing into the wind with a very attractive dashboard telling you how much energy you wasted.

Where we disagree with most of the industry

There is a common view that list building is administrative work, that the quality of the list does not matter much, and that time spent on it is time not spent dialing. We think that is exactly backwards. List quality is the most important part of the cold calling process. Not one of the important parts. The most important one.

Which leads to a practical suggestion. If you are evaluating a cold calling agency, the first question should not be about scripts, reps or dialers. It should be:

How do you build the list, where does the data come from, and how do you know it is any good?

Listen closely to the answer. If the answer is the name of a platform, what you are buying is that platform's index plus a phone. You could have bought that yourself.

This holds regardless of how you pay. Hourly retainer, pay per meeting, revenue share: in every one of those models, the goal is the same, which is that no hour gets spent on a call that never had a chance. On a retainer, a bad list wastes your money. On performance models, a bad list wastes ours. Either way, when the list is genuinely refined, the large majority of calls are worth making.

A note for another day

The mobile side of this deserves its own article. How the enrichment waterfall works, what happens to a wrong number when we hit one, and how those records get pushed back through a different source rather than thrown away. That one is coming.

Cold calling is not dead

Every few months someone on LinkedIn declares that cold calling no longer works. I understand where it comes from. Reaching people is harder than it was ten years ago, and it does take more effort now to do it properly.

But when I hear a team say the channel is dead, my first question is never about their reps or their script. It is about what they were dialing. Most of the time the channel was never the problem.

The list was.

About the author

Dylan Garvock-de Montbrun

Co-Founder of KYC Strategies, a white-glove B2B cold calling agency. KYC builds its lists from live sources against its own data schema, and every campaign it runs is scored and reported on.

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